by cmoneyspinner » 19 Dec 2017, 22:53
@
Spriha, @
sprite1950 ~ This is a prickly subject I know. I also know it really doesn't matter what the courts decide, the person of faith has already decided the matter, according to their conscience.
Nevertheless … let's discuss.
What is the gay couple's argument?
They're being discriminated against by business owners who are
using their religious freedom to refuse to serve them. In other words, the owners are breaking the law and violating the civil or human rights of the gay couple, under the guise of exercising their religious freedom.
So we're splitting hairs over this.
I SAY This is not about people being prevented from leading a “normal life” or about being “old-fashioned”.
I SAY This is about citizens exercising their free will and their freedoms in a democracy that protects those freedoms. I'm in the USA. I can't speak for other countries. We have a Constitution, laws and a legal framework or judicial system that we sometimes use to legally settle a matter.
Although sometimes the matter is not quite settled “legally” because some people won't obey the legal decision handed down the judge. Happens all the time! Not just in cases about religion.
Anyway! I SAY that in America, you can't tell people how to run their business. Why?
Because it's not YOUR business!We are not talking about preventing people from leading a “normal life”. We are talking about people leading their “normal lives” and insisting that everybody has to agree, comply, or go along with their life choices and ADJUST or ADAPT and not exercise their freedom of religion, which is a part of them living their “normal life”, so that the gay couple can be accommodated.
Show me, anywhere in the world, not just the USA, a person with religious convictions who does not make ALL of their life decisions ~ business or non-business, private or public ~ based on their faith, religious principles and/or beliefs.
That means, when they act, the matter is really already decided in their hearts and minds. They won't compromise and they are ready to face the consequences. If the courts compel them to close the doors of their business because they refuse to serve a gay couple because it conflicts with their religion, they'll close the doors. The end of the matter for them is:
They answer to a Higher Authority.
Even though I broached this discussion, I know that the matter has already been decided by the business owner WHO KNEW what might happen when they refused to bake the wedding cake for the gay couple. But they did it anyway. They made a choice based on their religious beliefs and were prepared to face the consequences.
For the gay couple, because they were personally offended or maybe even insulted, in an effort to
legally demand that the owner bake the cake, they addressed or dressed the business owner's actions as a “form of discrimination” and took it to court.
I SAY whether or not judges were called upon to mediate, the business owners would have made the same decision. They weren't and aren't relying on any government to decide on matters of religious teachings and doctrines OR even to protect their religious liberty. If they were they would have taken the matter to court and got a decision BEFORE refusing to bake the cake. So bringing a lawsuit just separates the
sheep from
goat. That is, the believers who will stay faithful to their convictions VS the ones who will compromise.
* The reality is that the gay couple, without bringing a lawsuit, can go to another business and get their cake baked and write a review or use word of mouth to tell others about their experience with that “other” business and potential customers will probably go elsewhere. The company could lose business and/or end up going out of business.
* The reality for the business owners is that based on a court decision because of the lawsuit, they could be forced to close down their legitimate business and forfeit their means of earning a living and financially supporting themselves and their family. Even so. There are people who have literally gone to their deaths for their religious beliefs. A court decision will not likely sway them.
Which “reality” is FAIR and JUST? I use those words because courts are supposed to decide what is FAIR and what is JUST. Right?
I could SAY more. But I'll break right here.
Questions, hypotheticals, What IF scenarios, theories, challenges, comments?
[user]Spriha[/user], [user]sprite1950[/user] ~ This is a prickly subject I know. I also know it really doesn't matter what the courts decide, the person of faith has already decided the matter, according to their conscience.
Nevertheless … let's discuss.
What is the gay couple's argument?
They're being discriminated against by business owners who are [i]using[/i] their religious freedom to refuse to serve them. In other words, the owners are breaking the law and violating the civil or human rights of the gay couple, under the guise of exercising their religious freedom.
So we're splitting hairs over this.
I SAY This is not about people being prevented from leading a “normal life” or about being “old-fashioned”.
I SAY This is about citizens exercising their free will and their freedoms in a democracy that protects those freedoms. I'm in the USA. I can't speak for other countries. We have a Constitution, laws and a legal framework or judicial system that we sometimes use to legally settle a matter.
Although sometimes the matter is not quite settled “legally” because some people won't obey the legal decision handed down the judge. Happens all the time! Not just in cases about religion.
[i]Anyway![/i]
I SAY that in America, you can't tell people how to run their business. Why? [b]Because it's not YOUR business![/b]
We are not talking about preventing people from leading a “normal life”. We are talking about people leading their “normal lives” and insisting that everybody has to agree, comply, or go along with their life choices and ADJUST or ADAPT and not exercise their freedom of religion, which is a part of them living their “normal life”, so that the gay couple can be accommodated.
Show me, anywhere in the world, not just the USA, a person with religious convictions who does not make ALL of their life decisions ~ business or non-business, private or public ~ based on their faith, religious principles and/or beliefs.
That means, when they act, the matter is really already decided in their hearts and minds. They won't compromise and they are ready to face the consequences. If the courts compel them to close the doors of their business because they refuse to serve a gay couple because it conflicts with their religion, they'll close the doors. The end of the matter for them is: [i]They answer to a Higher Authority[/i].
Even though I broached this discussion, I know that the matter has already been decided by the business owner WHO KNEW what might happen when they refused to bake the wedding cake for the gay couple. But they did it anyway. They made a choice based on their religious beliefs and were prepared to face the consequences.
For the gay couple, because they were personally offended or maybe even insulted, in an effort to [u]legally demand[/u] that the owner bake the cake, they addressed or dressed the business owner's actions as a “form of discrimination” and took it to court.
I SAY whether or not judges were called upon to mediate, the business owners would have made the same decision. They weren't and aren't relying on any government to decide on matters of religious teachings and doctrines OR even to protect their religious liberty. If they were they would have taken the matter to court and got a decision BEFORE refusing to bake the cake. So bringing a lawsuit just separates the [i]sheep[/i] from [i]goat[/i]. That is, the believers who will stay faithful to their convictions VS the ones who will compromise.
* The reality is that the gay couple, without bringing a lawsuit, can go to another business and get their cake baked and write a review or use word of mouth to tell others about their experience with that “other” business and potential customers will probably go elsewhere. The company could lose business and/or end up going out of business.
* The reality for the business owners is that based on a court decision because of the lawsuit, they could be forced to close down their legitimate business and forfeit their means of earning a living and financially supporting themselves and their family. Even so. There are people who have literally gone to their deaths for their religious beliefs. A court decision will not likely sway them.
Which “reality” is FAIR and JUST? I use those words because courts are supposed to decide what is FAIR and what is JUST. Right?
I could SAY more. But I'll break right here.
Questions, hypotheticals, What IF scenarios, theories, challenges, comments?