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Refusing to bake wedding cakes for gay couples

Postby cmoneyspinner » 08 Dec 2017, 20:28

Can businesses legally refuse to bake a wedding cake for gay couples?

This is a discussion that is taking place in various forums, online communities, etc., in the news, and in the court room. It's a matter that has been taken to our US courts for a final legal ruling. The gist of the matter is that a business owner refused to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple because of his/her religious beliefs.

Don't know if it's been decided. Not following it. Regardless of what the judges decide, I have already concluded that a person's business is their own entity. They get to run it they way they choose. The government should not interfere. Let the customers decide. The customers are the ones who decide whether or not a business is successful anyway!

My conclusion has nothing to do with the business owner's religious beliefs or faith, even though that is the reason they refused to make the cake for the homosexual couple.

If the business is operating within legal boundaries and laws are not being broken, there is no reason the government should tell a person how to run their business.

I know people will argue that at one time business owners operating in America refused to serve people of color, especially at privately owned restaurants. But now it is not allowed because it's illegal to discriminate and refuse them.

People want to apply the same logic when it comes to refusing to serve gay couples.

I don't think it's the same thing.

For one thing the people of color were not being refused service based on the owner's religion. The owner simply refused to acknowledge them as equal citizens with equal rights under the law. It was a way of “holding them down”, a form of oppression.

However, when it comes to a person's religious beliefs, you – the gay person - are asking them to violate their conscience and their faith in order to accommodate you.

But would you be willing to break off your homosexual relationship to accommodate them? I trow not.


* * I mean …

Would you cater food for your wedding from a kosher Jewish restaurant and demand that they prepare your food with lots of bacon and ham and pork fat?

Would you go to a Muslim establishment that serves food prepared in accordance with Halāl (also spelled hallal or halaal, refers to what is permissible or lawful in traditional Islamic law) and demand that they prepare your food differently?

Would you take them to court if they refused?

Would you say they were discriminating against you?

Would you argue that they are breaking the law because they refused you?

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Re: Refusing to bake wedding cakes for gay couples

Postby skysnap » 08 Dec 2017, 20:48

cmoneyspinner wrote:Can businesses legally refuse to bake a wedding cake for gay couples?


Why not? I don't know what's wrong with choosing your client? I think LGBT community is being bullish lately. After taking life of august ames with online bullying LGBT community wants special treatment on business too. I am kind of starting to feel uncomfortable around this community now. They are starting to act like angry feminist mob.
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Re: Refusing to bake wedding cakes for gay couples

Postby nela13 » 08 Dec 2017, 21:09

I agree with your point of view, the owner of the business has the right to decide how to run it because It is the owner that is losing money when he/she refuses a client.
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Re: Refusing to bake wedding cakes for gay couples

Postby bestwriter » 08 Dec 2017, 23:26

Any one can refuse to take orders where gay or not.
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Re: Refusing to bake wedding cakes for gay couples

Postby Lexi » 09 Dec 2017, 00:00

There was a case in Northern Ireland too and the bakery lost the case, but I think it was a bad decision as the intent was not to have a cake baked, but to prove a point.

I read about the case in the USA and I feel for the bakers because they should be able to decide to accept or decline orders. If it goes against their beliefs then so be it, because it's not illegal to reject an order, but it can be if the reason is prejudiced. The baker should have simply said they had too many orders and not said anymore and returned the deposit.

I have gay friends and while I listen to them, I also think they feel they are more entitled because they have been discriminated before. Now they seem to hold power in complaining about so many things, it's similar to people caving into Muslims to appear PC. It's wrong, but playing the victim all the time is wearing thin.Yes, in the past they have suffered, but these days they have more rights than straight folks which is wrong again.
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Re: Refusing to bake wedding cakes for gay couples

Postby cmoneyspinner » 09 Dec 2017, 20:25

Lexi wrote:The baker should have simply said they had too many orders and not said anymore and returned the deposit.


So it would have been OK to lie instead of taking a stand? ;)

Lexi wrote:I have gay friends and while I listen to them, I also think they feel they are more entitled because they have been discriminated before.


What if it were a gay person who owned the business and they refused a heterosexual couple?

The point is ... if a business doesn't give you what you want ... take your business elsewhere! Write a review on the Internet or spread it around word of mouth that the owners wouldn't serve you, like people usually do. People reading reviews or listening to the word on the streets will make their own decisions. It's just business.
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Re: Refusing to bake wedding cakes for gay couples

Postby lisasteinmetz69 » 11 Dec 2017, 00:38

That should be the bakery's choice of doing it. If it goes against their religious beliefs then they shouldn't be fined for declining. The government has no right to force business owners to go against their religious beliefs.
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Re: Refusing to bake wedding cakes for gay couples

Postby Spriha » 18 Dec 2017, 02:04

This is unfair, gays are also human and they have rights to lead a normal life.
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Re: Refusing to bake wedding cakes for gay couples

Postby cmoneyspinner » 18 Dec 2017, 22:18

Spriha wrote:This is unfair, gays are also human and they have rights to lead a normal life.


Nobody is arguing that homosexuals are not human. Part of leading a normal life and being human is recognizing that everyone does not have to agree with your lifestyle choices. Sometimes you might even get offended or even insulted. That's life!

Have you never been offended? Have you never been refused or rejected? Have you never been insulted?

What did you do each time that happened? Go get a lawyer??

I don't demand that an atheist become a Christian. I do invite them to the fellowship. They can refuse the invitation.

If an atheist owns a business and refuses to serve me or sell to me because I'm not an atheist, I may or may not be offended. But it is their business. They are the owners. I won't file a lawsuit against them! Although, I might warn my non-atheist friends and tell them not to bother trying to give the company their business because their business is not wanted. If they don't want my business, they don't want it! If they go out of business because they refuse paying customers, it's their business!
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Re: Refusing to bake wedding cakes for gay couples

Postby Spriha » 19 Dec 2017, 02:28

cmoneyspinner wrote:
Spriha wrote:This is unfair, gays are also human and they have rights to lead a normal life.


Nobody is arguing that homosexuals are not human. Part of leading a normal life and being human is recognizing that everyone does not have to agree with your lifestyle choices. Sometimes you might even get offended or even insulted. That's life!

Have you never been offended? Have you never been refused or rejected? Have you never been insulted?

What did you do each time that happened? Go get a lawyer??

I don't demand that an atheist become a Christian. I do invite them to the fellowship. They can refuse the invitation.

If an atheist owns a business and refuses to serve me or sell to me because I'm not an atheist, I may or may not be offended. But it is their business. They are the owners. I won't file a lawsuit against them! Although, I might warn my non-atheist friends and tell them not to bother trying to give the company their business because their business is not wanted. If they don't want my business, they don't want it! If they go out of business because they refuse paying customers, it's their business!

I appreciate that you invite them in xmas occasion and you know what being human is the most important and we normal people if can treat other gender as human, we are no longer human being. As we lead normal life they also deserve normal life.
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Re: Refusing to bake wedding cakes for gay couples

Postby sprite1950 » 19 Dec 2017, 08:49

Well I suppose any business has the right to accept or refuse a customer but it does seem a bit old fashioned in this day and age to lose money on the grounds that a couple are gay. One of my best friends is gay and he's the nicest of people but if someone refused to bake him a cake I would do it myself. :D

You can't really tell people how to run a business but it would put me off using them if I thought they could be so picky, religious beliefs or not, and I would probably tell other people how they felt about gay people so it could harm their reputation.
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Re: Refusing to bake wedding cakes for gay couples

Postby cmoneyspinner » 19 Dec 2017, 22:53

@Spriha, @sprite1950 ~ This is a prickly subject I know. I also know it really doesn't matter what the courts decide, the person of faith has already decided the matter, according to their conscience.

Nevertheless … let's discuss.

What is the gay couple's argument?
They're being discriminated against by business owners who are using their religious freedom to refuse to serve them. In other words, the owners are breaking the law and violating the civil or human rights of the gay couple, under the guise of exercising their religious freedom.

So we're splitting hairs over this.

I SAY This is not about people being prevented from leading a “normal life” or about being “old-fashioned”.

I SAY This is about citizens exercising their free will and their freedoms in a democracy that protects those freedoms. I'm in the USA. I can't speak for other countries. We have a Constitution, laws and a legal framework or judicial system that we sometimes use to legally settle a matter.

Although sometimes the matter is not quite settled “legally” because some people won't obey the legal decision handed down the judge. Happens all the time! Not just in cases about religion.

Anyway!
I SAY that in America, you can't tell people how to run their business. Why? Because it's not YOUR business!

We are not talking about preventing people from leading a “normal life”. We are talking about people leading their “normal lives” and insisting that everybody has to agree, comply, or go along with their life choices and ADJUST or ADAPT and not exercise their freedom of religion, which is a part of them living their “normal life”, so that the gay couple can be accommodated.

Show me, anywhere in the world, not just the USA, a person with religious convictions who does not make ALL of their life decisions ~ business or non-business, private or public ~ based on their faith, religious principles and/or beliefs.

That means, when they act, the matter is really already decided in their hearts and minds. They won't compromise and they are ready to face the consequences. If the courts compel them to close the doors of their business because they refuse to serve a gay couple because it conflicts with their religion, they'll close the doors. The end of the matter for them is: They answer to a Higher Authority.

Even though I broached this discussion, I know that the matter has already been decided by the business owner WHO KNEW what might happen when they refused to bake the wedding cake for the gay couple. But they did it anyway. They made a choice based on their religious beliefs and were prepared to face the consequences.

For the gay couple, because they were personally offended or maybe even insulted, in an effort to legally demand that the owner bake the cake, they addressed or dressed the business owner's actions as a “form of discrimination” and took it to court.

I SAY whether or not judges were called upon to mediate, the business owners would have made the same decision. They weren't and aren't relying on any government to decide on matters of religious teachings and doctrines OR even to protect their religious liberty. If they were they would have taken the matter to court and got a decision BEFORE refusing to bake the cake. So bringing a lawsuit just separates the sheep from goat. That is, the believers who will stay faithful to their convictions VS the ones who will compromise.

* The reality is that the gay couple, without bringing a lawsuit, can go to another business and get their cake baked and write a review or use word of mouth to tell others about their experience with that “other” business and potential customers will probably go elsewhere. The company could lose business and/or end up going out of business.

* The reality for the business owners is that based on a court decision because of the lawsuit, they could be forced to close down their legitimate business and forfeit their means of earning a living and financially supporting themselves and their family. Even so. There are people who have literally gone to their deaths for their religious beliefs. A court decision will not likely sway them.

Which “reality” is FAIR and JUST? I use those words because courts are supposed to decide what is FAIR and what is JUST. Right?


I could SAY more. But I'll break right here.

Questions, hypotheticals, What IF scenarios, theories, challenges, comments?
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Re: Refusing to bake wedding cakes for gay couples

Postby ceci » 21 Dec 2017, 14:32

Oh no, my blessing to them. Love, is no difference between gender.
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Re: Refusing to bake wedding cakes for gay couples

Postby verity » 22 Dec 2017, 06:40

these is a Discrimanation for LGBT community! the bakeshop should fine and pay the gay couple! but they can do it only if thier a Law protecting lgbt in thier state!
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Re: Refusing to bake wedding cakes for gay couples

Postby augusta » 24 Dec 2017, 07:20

Really, that wasn't nice though I.know people don't joke with their principles. but it was unfair.
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